Rossi’s engineer: ‘I have seen things you people wouldn’t believe’

Fulvio Fabiani

A few days ago I had a conversation with Rossi’s closest technician and engineer since 2012, Fulvio Fabiani, which I will report on here. Let me first make clear that the quite lengthy report has absolutely no value if you’re convinced that the E-Cat technology doesn’t work. At the most it will be anecdotic. People considering the E-Cat technology to be valid will, on the other hand, find some of Fabiani’s statements to be interesting.

§

Fabiani, 48, was born and grew up in Rome, Italy. He had a great passion for information technology as a child and made his first video game at the age of 12. He studied electronics, electro technology and computer science, and for some years he made a military career as an officer in the Italian Military Force.

He also worked as a consultant for court cases regarding information technology, and as a system administrator at the Italian National Institute of Astrophysics before moving to the US, working for the airport security technology provider InVision Technologies. Later, he specialized in certification of circuit boards in gaming & gambling machines, which led him to working with communication technology between online gaming systems and bank systems, traveling across a series of countries in the ex Soviet Union for seven years.

In 2012, a common friend introduced him to Rossi who was then looking for a person who could develop and improve the power supply system for the first version of the E-Cat, and Fabiani was invited to have a look at Rossi’s device.

“I have to admit, and I always said this, that when I came there I didn’t believe it was working,” Fabiani told me.

“As a skeptic I started there, and in the beginning Rossi wouldn’t let me see any data. Gradually he gained confidence since I solved a few problems. And after some time I found myself with the truth in my hands, having made some calculations, and I was amazed. I made the same calculations twenty times and I tried to find the error, but there was no error.

“Now after seeing everything that Rossi is doing, and the levels at which we have arrived, there really is no error, but already at that time he saw things that ordinary people were not yet able to see.

“Either you have seen this from the start, or you have to remain puzzled. If you’re skeptical, then until you have a 100 percent proof, until the hammer hits your finger, you won’t believe that your adversary has a hammer.

“Many people play on this, and especially on the fact that Rossi has a rather closed character, as many geniuses. He is a genius who has an impressive way of reasoning. I sometimes find it difficult to follow him.   You should see him when he arrives disheveled, shirt inside out, running around in the laboratory. He reminds you of the scientist from ‘Back to the Future’.

“He comes with a paper fluttering, saying ‘Oh, I had this idea, we have to try this’, throwing away 15 days of your setup of a reactor because he wants to try something different, and you have not even finished the idea that he had previously. Rossi is an avalanche of great ideas.

“He has an ability, not of imagination but of reasoning about physics that is impressive. I see him analyzing immense formulas of physical behavior of matter that leave me speechless, and sometimes he goes: ‘Look, they made a sign error here, how is that possible?’ Because he’s not reading the book. He’s analyzing it, hair by hair. He studies 24h because he analyses everything that others say, because they don’t convince him. He’s like that, also regarding what I say to him, even though he doesn’t know much about electrical engineering and electronics. But he looks it up. He questions the world itself.

“I know him well by now. We have conflicts and arguments but also friendship and mutual trust, all this because as an engineer in charge I have to run things well. There are times when he doesn’t even turn them on, because he has already gone further, and so I’m skipping some operational steps. But he has already simulated their behavior in his head, and therefore he doesn’t care. That is genius.”

Talking about the validity of the E-Cat technology, Fabiani continues:

“With the failures, I found myself having to believe in it. Why? Because when something fails, you see the behavior of the object. The next time you adjust it, then you see that it behaves very differently. And then you realize that it is something unique. We have it all filmed, which still cannot be disclosed. We have photographs of creatures that emit pure light that have completely melted the reactor down, all in a very quiet way. You just turn off the stimuli system and the reaction is switched off. It’s impressive.

“I can assure you that the shutdown of the reaction is immediate. The response at ignition with the certified technology is medium fast since we use this technology to produce steam. With steam, inertia when starting up is necessary because of the mass of water that becomes steam. But with ideas we have plans for everything, even instantaneous reactions. Now I’m working on many of Rossi’s new ideas including the E-CatX*, while also being responsible for power supply & control and maintenance on the long term test [of the 1 MW plant**].

“Until now the test is in line with the result that we expected. We encountered the biggest problems during the design and installation phase of the test plant. The most difficult thing was the choice of materials needed to withstand this new kind of energy release and this type of operation for such a long time. And we have found many little flaws—teething problems. For example, also the choice of bolts has led to a revision because some bolts were not sufficiently treated with anti-corrosive, and so they rusted. But if you don’t test you cannot say that you have a product to sell.”

As for Rossi’s ability to take advice, Fabiani says:

“Rossi doesn’t like standard reasoning. He is not a linear researcher. I find myself arguing with Andrea because his views are not compatible with other points of view in a way so you can exchange information. I am lucky that after three years I now have a certain confidence, and this confidence allows me to do things in my own way regarding the power supply system, because what he thinks is not feasible for standard and linear technicians. I’m acting almost as an interpreter from his ideas to the standard world.

“Over the years we realized that the reaction needs more stimuli than only heating. Everyone thinks that thermal stimulus is enough but that’s just the beginning. It’s not enough for maximum efficiency. It’s the base, the synthesis of the reaction. But the reaction has almost behaviors as of living matter, and it has responses as a function of the stimuli. They can be of many types other than thermal. And these are the ones that trigger, let’s call it the most fun part of it, allowing excellent gains in terms of response to the stimuli.”

Fabiani about his role:

“Rossi is the head and runs the R&D. I’m his right arm, his left arm and his legs too. We have staff, technicians who help us. Only R&D has about 12 people with me included. I’m the link between Rossi and the others for everything that regards R&D. I don’t have knowledge on the reaction because the formula is not my concern. When it is time, Rossi makes his mixtures according to his formulas, puts the charge in the cores and gives me the complete cores. A reactor is composed of a core, an excitation system, and a system for heat exchange. I look after the excitation system and the system for heat exchange, and also the physical realization of the core. But the core must be filled with the mixture of powders that Rossi from time to time recalibrates in function of the effect that he wants to achieve.

“To be more precise I am bound by an agreement with Industrial Heat, and I’m available for Rossi to be his right arm. I cannot give any more details due to an NDA”.

Talking about future development, Fabiani says:

“I have really seen… Did you see Blade Runner? The quote at the end, ‘I’ve seen things you people wouldn’t believe’. It’s true. I assure you that I have seen things that only I, Rossi and a few other people saw. We really saw things… I really saw the new frontier of energy. There is nothing in comparison. You cannot imagine. I speak of the E-CatX* and many others of Rossi’s experiments. We have tried lots of things, and we have made some twenty and more different reactors. And I can assure you that with some of them we have truly seen a new world. Energy density, reaction capacity, in the sense of things never seen. The new frontier of energy.

“The field that this reaction opens up is so vast that it’s almost impossible to imagine all the capabilities and possibilities. I have always been a lover of science fiction, and yet I was never able to believe that the famous star ships you see in the movies would become possible, because it seemed too far away. But I have to say that when I saw what Rossi was able to open, I’m seeing that world getting closer. Maybe before I die I will see those starships. Yes, it’s a child’s dream.”

Fabiani about the 1 MW trial plant**:

“My ‘baby’ as I call it, because I and my colleagues put it all together, I see my baby walking every day, and now I can even feel her breath, as I call it. You feel it when she produces steam and bubbles. We have learned to identify some moments of the reaction as a function of the type of boiling inside. Just try to imagine. Now we really know what she’s doing by the ear. And everyday I collect about 1.5 million records. And it is impressive.”

Mats: What will you do next year, after the end of the one-year trial?

“Haha, I don’t know. The game is getting too big to be handled only by Rossi and me in person. It’s something that will change the face of the Earth, so … I don’t know. Since I’m not involved in anything related to the business development or the technology development at the industrial level, and since I don’t have any deeper knowledge on the direction in which things are going, I prefer not to say too much about it.

“About 10 or 15 top level managers are involved—surely there is Rossi and Darden, but I don’t know them all well. Is not of my concern. I think it’s right to keep things compartmentalized to avoid information leaks.

“In discussions on Internet forums everyone says they are slow, but I only see people really devoting all their resources and all their time to make this happen. So many people talk, but they don’t even know what it means to industrialize an object like that.”

§

* E-Cat X is an experimental high-temperature reactor based on Andrea Rossi’s E-Cat technology, which supposedly would produce both heat and light.

** Since mid-February 2015, Rossi and his US industrial partner Industrial Heat are running a one-year commercial trial on a customer’s site with a heat plant producing 1 MW. The plant is made up of four 250kW modules, each based on E-Cat technology. Unless something unexpected happens, the trial, which is controlled by a major independent third party certification institute, should be concluded by February or March 2016, and the results should then be presented.

Note: Fulvio Fabiani has signed NDAs regarding E-Cat technology with several parties, which obviously limited what he could say in this interview.

43 comments

  1. An interview with Mr Rossi right hand man.
    An interesting interview and a great scoop.
    Thanks Mats

  2. The answers could give us a clearer idea of this person
    What kind of answer do you expect? And do you need more lies to understand “the kind of person”?

    Who do you think posted the now claimed “fake profile” on linkedin, referred in ECatWorld in 2013 and many times on a couple of italian blogs, Santa Claus?

  3. CimPy
    On my side I expect Mr Fabiani, that by evidence is following this blog, to clarify the following:
    – when did he attend the Ukrainian University classes, I mean the years, considering that in his profile it seems he has Always worked. Maybe it’s a HC degree, who knows
    – in addition, when did he get the three High School diplomas (ITIS)
    – if the profile posted by Frank Ackland on his blog is another fake or not
    The answers could give us a clearer idea of this person.
    Mats could help us in this undesrtanding

  4. Sue Jones wrote: “They had an abuse-prone procedure known as SAWS by which any patent agent could delay any patent forever. ”

    The statistics show that resolution of patents under SAWS was at worst delayed by a factor of 2. However, resolution often meant the application was denied.

    But whether or not cold fusion patents have been subject to additional scrutiny under SAWS, grounds for their rejection without independent evidence of operability are explicitly present in the USPTO Manual of Patent Examination Procedure, section 2107, on the Utility Requirement:

    “An invention that is “inoperative” (i.e., it does not operate to produce the results claimed by the patent applicant) is not a “useful” invention in the meaning of the patent law.”

    The purpose of SAWS was not to bury patent applications, but to ensure the rules were properly followed on sensitive topics, including cold fusion, perpetual motion, anti-gravity, and a range of sensitive biological topics like magnets affecting taste and so on.

    The intent was not unreasonable from the point of view of self-preservation, but also in the public interest. Sensitive patents are those that would attract a lot of attention, and a patent granted on anti-gravity that was obviously inoperable brings bad publicity to the entire patent system. Moreover, sensitive patents tend to promise extraordinary benefits, and so even though a patent is not intended to be a validation, many people regard it is as such, and so it can be (and is) used to facilitate fraud. For these reasons, additional scrutiny was considered warranted for such applications, since individual examiners can easily slip up now and then — maybe they are pre-occupied with a hot date that night.

    Ordinarily, utility does not have to be proven to obtain a patent. “Office personnel are reminded that they must treat as true a statement of fact made by an applicant in relation to an asserted utility, unless countervailing evidence can be provided that shows that one of ordinary skill in the art would have a legitimate basis to doubt the credibility of such a statement.”

    So a patent is not a validation, and was never intended to be. But it can be rejected as not useful if its claimed utility is not credible: “The second type of deficiency arises in the rare instance where an assertion of specific and substantial utility for the invention made by an applicant is not credible.”

    “Situations where an invention is found to be “inoperative” and therefore lacking in utility are rare, and rejections maintained solely on this ground by a Federal court even rarer. In many of these cases, the utility asserted by the applicant was thought to be “incredible in the light of the knowledge of the art…” … Other cases suggest that on initial evaluation, the Office considered the asserted utility to be inconsistent with known scientific principles

    Cold fusion, along with perpetual motion, and some other claims, is cited as a specific example of “incredible” utility, or “wholly inoperative invention”. Therefore, in claims of cold fusion or LENR, which are considered by most people skilled in the art to be inconsistent with known science, an examiner is justified in requiring evidence of operability.

    The purpose of SAWS was to emphasize this requirement. But all that was needed to get the patent granted was evidence of operability. That does not seem like an unreasonable requirement to me.

  5. THe US PAtent and Trademark Office is now working much faster on LENR and Cold Fusion patents. The patent attorney firm that represents BrillouinEnergy.com, Kirpatrick Townsend sued the PTO under FOIA (Freedom of information act) to discover the reason. They had an abuse-prone procedure known as SAWS by which any patent agent could delay any patent forever. The US PTO have now claimed publicly they will no longer use the SAWS procedure anymore. Time will tell if they find another way to drag their knuckles.

  6. Amusing – what do you expect Fabiani to say? He even spoke of “false ptofile” – as if it was not he the one who posted it…

    “Engineer” as noun – that’s genius, Mats. Or might be simply “sharing”, “participating”, like in “partnership”, “fellowship”…

  7. Maybe Mr Fabiani can clarify the point raised by Mechanic_stuff and also answer to my question regarding the years spent at the Ukrainian university.

  8. December 2013, E Cat World:

    “Fulvio Fabiani, whose title on his LinkedIn page is ‘Tech Director & R.D. at Leonardo Corporation MIAMI – FL – USA’. Mr. Fabiani also lists a company called Industrial Heat LLC as a company he works for on Linkedin. (http://www.linkedin.com/pub/fulvio-fabiani/20/534/1b3?trk=pub-pbmap&_mSplash=1) [UPDATE] Mr. Fabiani has now taken the reference to Industrial Heat LLC from his LinkedIn profile”.

    So, it was a fake profile. But it seems as if Fabiani changed it back in 2013.

    Might be you are not interviewing the same Fabiani E Cat World was speaking about.

  9. In June 2010 Rossi said: “Fortunately, the real judge is the market: to copy a paper is easy, to say to have invented something is easy, but to sell and make a plant you need the plant. That’s not easy and that’s the real difference between a wannabe and a technology maker.”

    In other words, talk is cheap.

    And this interview is only talk, and none of it can be verified. It’s more than 5 years later, and there is nothing on the market that I can buy, and for the last year or more, we have heard only talk.

    So, by his own standard, is Rossi a technology maker or wannabe?

  10. ”We have photographs of creatures that emit pure light that have completely melted the reactor down, all in a very quiet way. You just turn off the stimuli system and the reaction is switched off. It’s impressive.”

    A broken heating element can produce an electric arc that will emit pure light and melt the reactor down, all in a very quiet way. You just pull the plug and the reaction is switched off. No surprise there.

  11. @Pekka – Rossi has hinted on this in comments, but maybe he intended light through electricity produced by the Ecat X. However, considering what Fabiani told me of the reaction producing pure light, I suppose direct light from the Ecat X is not excluded.

  12. Mats, you write about E-cat X “supposedly would produce both heat and light.” The light thing is new to me, has Rossi said that in some phase? (Other than if it’s 1400 C hot, it certainly glows.)

  13. Good to see that the fake Fabiani’s profile has been removed.
    A questions for him, considering it seems he’s following the thread:
    – In which years did you attend the Ukrainian university and in which year did you get your master degree?
    Thanks

  14. Fantastisk Mats.
    Det eneste vi trenger nå , er våkne politikere.
    Godt Svenskene er går foran🙂

  15. What an interview, it was exciting to read it.

    We have to be thankful on behalf of our children and grand children, that the world is blessed by such an unconventional and self-willed genius like Andrea Rossi. Now when it is really needed to stop global warming before it’s too late.

    The only thing that certainly will force all the countries in the future to leave rest of oil and coal inside the ground forever, is to make using of them economically very badly unprofitable compared to using CO2 free energy.

  16. @Mats: Bets are open as to how long this third edition will hold #1 on various bestseller lists after the cat is finally out of the bag🙂

  17. @Urban – well, sooner or later I guess that I will have to make either a third edition, or a follow-up book. There’s the stuff that will happen if and when the results from the one-year trial will be presented, and then there are lots of stuff that people involved haven’t told me yet, but that they probably will be able to tell me one day. So we’ll see😉

  18. Holy shit! He’s talking about starships and stuff. I wonder if there is any connection between this and that EM drive that has been in the news. Even more exotically, there might be a connection between this and the work of David Pares, who really is trying to build a real warp drive engine in his garage. Then again, there might also be a connection between Pares’s work and the EM drive, so this could all be connected. I hope it is because that will make all of this even more exciting.

  19. Dear Matts,

    Looking forward to the sequel to An Impossible Invention : perhaps:

    “ex tenebris lux (from the darkness light) : from the impossible emerges the possible”

    or

    “et facta est lux (and there was light) : the impossible made possible”

    or

    “Fiat lux (let there be light) : the beginning of a new age”

    or even:

    “et lux in tenebris lucet et tenebrae eam non conprehenderunt (the Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it) : …”

  20. Many years ago when Cold Fusion was first announced I heard from someone I totally trust who had great knowledge of physics how real it was. So many in our society scientists and the public saw it as such a huge miracle they didn’t research it with the sincerity that they would have given. If it would have only been a much smaller miraculous scientific discovery. In a sense the bias of so many observers expecting it to be massively too good to be true (certain it was snake oil), caused them to not pay adequate attention when they found things that supported LENR but rather labeled them a mistake in measuring the energy. Much as double blind experiments try to eliminate this bias by not letting the researches distort the results, because they have a strong opinion of what they will find. We see that bias prior to even seeing the research and proof, with our USA Patent Office refusing to even consider patents if they use the term LENR or Cold Fusion.

  21. @TheEnginee
    That is a false profile Linkedin Eng. Fabiani. There is another Linkedin profile with the real curriculum. You are not even able to distinguish a fake profile of a real one.
    Are you sure you know how to read?

  22. @Slad
    Everyone I have talked to confirm that a major independent third party certification institute is involved in the control of the 1-year test and that this institute will also be able to confirm the results when they are presented. I have no further proof though.

  23. Very interesting interview Mats! I hope you will be able to interview AR also soon after the test.
    One remark: A 250 kW unit does not consist of 16 E-cats. AR has explicitly denied that. It is one newly developed unit.

  24. Mats, have you been able to confirm that employees from a “major independent third party certification institute” are definitely involved in the testing?

  25. @ TheEngineer
    Well, it depends if you intend it as a university degree or a general term as in this definition:
    engineer:
    ɛndʒɪˈnɪə
    noun
    1.
    a person who designs, builds, or maintains engines, machines, or structures.
    synonyms: designer, planner, builder, architect, producer, fabricator, developer, creator; inventor, originator, deviser, contriver, mastermind
    “the structural engineer’s drawings”

    I will listen to the feed-back.

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